Liv Ullmann Q&A

Geoff Andrew speaks with Liv Ullmann about her relationship with Ingmar Bergman and her remarkable career.

Oct  4 2005

First working with Ingmar Bergman on 'Persona', Liv Ullmann became not only the Swedish maestro's partner for a while, but the most important actor of his later years, contributing superb performances to 'Shame', 'Cries and Whispers', 'Scenes from a Marriage' and other classics. More recently directing films from his scripts – most notably 'Faithless' – she was the obvious choice to play (opposite Erland Josephson, another regular who was in 'Scenes') in Bergman's belated, reportedly one-off return to directing, 'Saraband'.

Why did Ingmar decided to direct another film after so long?

It's almost flippant. He's very playful, and making 'Faithless', I would often between scenes pretend with Erland to be Johan and Marianne from 'Scenes' – like black comedy, with him totally senile and me not far off. The stills photographer shot some of that on video, so we sent it to Ingmar and said, 'Why not make a funny movie about the two of them 30 years on?' He agreed. So we were expecting a comedy, but then we got the script… I think he wanted to tell a story about people incapable of loving, who can only 'love' someone who's no longer around, so there's no response to upset them. If you love someone who's dead, that love can’t be touched; it's only in your own head.

Did you watch 'Scenes' again?

To be honest, I can't bear to see my old films. I started watching but…

Did you have misgivings about playing Marianne from 'Scenes' again?

On the contrary. I was very excited by the idea, though when I got around to reading the script, I found Marianne was now more of a witness, a bit like a chorus-figure in Greek drama. This film's quite different from 'Scenes'; Ingmar's using characters from that film to tell another story, about two men – Johan and his son – who each seem to have decided 'This is who I am,' and that’s it . Actually the son has a daughter who could help him, and Johan has Marianne. But middle-aged men can get like that.

Johan was terrible to Marianne in the earlier film, but that's because he didn't know what to do, whereas in the new film, he's become so old and bitter.

In 'Scenes' you feel he'll get over it, but now you see he didn't – and he won't.

The film is pretty dark.

But both Ingmar and I felt that at least one person in it learns something; takes their hand and touches someone. I was making a public appearance recently and they showed a clip of 'Persona' – the same thing happens! It made me feel that this man, who's now 87, needs to have been touched, and be able to touch.

Is 'Saraband' based, like many of Bergman's films, on events from his life?

Not much, though he did have a son who admired him a lot, and they fell out. Soon afterwards the son got sick; he died, but never allowed Ingmar to come and talk or say goodbye. I think Ingmar may've said things he later regretted; he's one of the few people I know sufficiently honest to say, 'I don't always like my child.' I wasn't there so don't know what was said, but I do think he was very honest in the film about what happens between the father and the son.

Did you or Erland disagree with Bergman at all over how your characters might have changed over the years?

The only disagreement was something Ingmar and I still joke about. For a night scene with Johan in Marianne's room, Ingmar wanted us both to stand there naked. Now, I'm proud of my body; it's lived in, a great body. But I knew for this scene he wasn't going to show that; he wanted to show the sadness of what happens to bodies. Erland didn't mind, but I didn't want to be photographed that way, so I said no. We had a horrible row, with him throwing a book and chasing me – this 86-year-old man! – through the studio to the costume designer's room. He told her to leave us alone, then we both burst into laughter. We stayed there a while, then went back, trying to look sad as if we'd been through a big trauma! But in reality we found it all very funny.

Was it strange to act for him again after directing some of his scripts?

It was an education. Now I look at Ingmar as a director and scriptwriter myself, and find myself thinking, 'I'd do that differently.' Then I see the results: 'He's right; he is the master.' He goes behind the obvious, finds something else.

Does he give much direction?

No. He might say, 'Go a little more quickly,' or some such, but that's all. Also, because it was made digitally, he sat not by the camera as he used to, but in the corner of the studio, so I'd only see his back while he was looking at the monitor. But it was like smoke signals; even from far away, we still understood each other.

Do you think he'll direct again?

I don't. Only if he could do it with one actor and one camera on Faro (the island on which the reclusive director has lived for years)… then, maybe yes. If he did, I think he'd want to deal with incest, which is sort of hinted at in 'Saraband'; to explore it, because it is a kind of love, and it's never talked about in those terms but only as something horrendous. Which it is, of course, but according to therapists, every third child has experienced it, so it's an important subject.

Have you ever felt his films are too raw or honest?

I'll tell you something. He loves 'Faithless' now, but at first he hated it, because I put forgiveness in. That's why he gives me scripts; there are things he doesn't want to talk about but knows I will. I want to have forgiveness and belief in life; he's strong and honest enough to make a film without all that. It would've been so easy for him to lighten it a little, but he won't. I may think a film's too dark but he doesn't care; it's just the story he wants to tell. That's why we're different, and why he's so great.

Do you have a favourite of the films you've made together?

'Scenes from a Marriage'. To me it was different in that the woman suddenly takes pride in who she is. She doesn't become great, but there's growth. She's real, and not as neurotic and dark as most of Ingmar's women. Marianne in 'Scenes' was me… and a lot of other women!

'Saraband' is released on Friday.

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