Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon Q&A Part One

Ben Walters catches up with the two funniest men in Britain to discuss 'A Cock and Bull Story'.

Jan  4 2006

Two giants of British comedy, Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon, team-up in one of the most eagerly anticipated films of 2006 – Michael Winterbottom's 'A Cock and Bull Story'. Time Out's Ben Walters recently caught up with the pair to discuss working together, creating great comedy and filming Laurence Sterne's supposedly un-filmable book. The following is the full transcript of that interview...

ROB BYDON I will only answer questions relating to me, okay? I just get tired people asking me what I think, you know – 'do you like this, do you like that?'

TIME OUT Are you liking you at the moment?

STEVE COOGAN Well, he gets straight in there, doesn't he?

RB I'm relatively content.

SC Don't think you've ever had any issues about liking yourself, have you?

RB Oh, you don't know me, you don't know me.

TO [to Steve] Are you liking Rob at the moment?

RB Here we go.

SC Yeah, I do like Rob really.

RB We like each other very much really, don't we?

SC Mm...

RB No, we do.

SC Like that bit in 'Spinal Tap' where he says: 'Janine and Martin love each other too much. It's not that they don't like each other.' And when he says that she goes: 'Well…' Brilliant.

RB It's good, we've spent more time with each other now haven't we, doing this ['A Cock and Bull Story']? We don't actually see a huge amount of each other, do we? I was saying in another interview, we're very different in many ways but where we overlap we overlap really snugly, and that's quite nice, but in many ways we're very different creatures.

SC We are different but I think we're kind of like– There's two things, really, I'd say. One is that I think we know each other well enough to not mind being a bit personal in the banter we have with each other because we know that this is all for the greater good, as it were. And secondly, I'd say that we're both up to speed in terms of we've got an ability to improvise on the spot and we – [to TO] I'm very impressed with your shorthand – we both, I think, have the ability to pursue the kind of comedy of a scene without it looking too obvious or mannered. So we can sniff where the comedy is whilst trying to remain in the moment and truthful to the situation, so it's not– it doesn't look like schtick too much, so it has a truthfulness to it. And I know that he can do that, he knows that I can do that. And it raises your game too. So if you're, you know, playing with someone who has a certain ability, you have to focus, you have to concentrate. But it's enjoyable. That's the serious answer to the question.

RB And you don't feel like you're carrying the other person, do you?

SC No, and I'll tell you how you know that, because when I, certainly, in the past tried to do this kind of work – not that the whole thing's improvisation; in actual fact quite a lot of the film was actually scripted – but when you do act with someone who you presume will know where the comedy is, they just can't do it. And they may very well be good actors too, but they can't see where... sometimes you both instinctively know where to go to pursue the comedy and you go with it. You don't actually fight each other; even though it looks like we're fighting each other, we're not actually. In terms of comedy what we do is when one of us veers down a certain path, we'll both go there together. We won't do that thing of just resisting each other.

RB And you won't rush either, that's the thing. As Steve said, a lot of the film where you maybe think it's improvised it's not. The bookend scenes at the beginning and end, they're obviously improvised. But you don't rush...

SC There's a rhythm...

RB There's a rhythm and there's a trust with each other and you can take it slow. A lot of improvising, people who aren't terrific at it, there'll be a haste because there's an insecurity about leaving gaps because they won't be able to fill it and are unsure what the other person is going to come back with.

SC That's true.

RB Steve and I can always just leave it.

SC That's true. Sometimes if you're improvising or acting with someone you leave a gap and they'll just jump straight in. And it's almost like: 'Whoa! You fool, you just ruined my comic pause!' You don't say that obviously, you just think it.

RB There was that one time I remember when you shouted it.

SC I did shout it out.

RB You shouted it.

SC [Mock-bellows:] 'I was pausing!' [Laughs]. Also Michael [Winterbottom]'s got a very good technique in that he never says 'action' – no one's mentioned that yet – Michael doesn't say action.

RB He shouts: 'Start now', doesn't he? 'And… start now!', 'Okay, roll. Steve, we're rolling. Steve, yeah. Start now!' So he may as well shout: 'action'.

SC [Laughs] No, he sometimes does very quietly says 'Right, you know, whenever you're ready – just sort of ease into it', and often won't say 'cut'. Sometimes he says 'cut', actually, but he'll also let the camera keep rolling. 'Cause it's high definition [digital video] so it's sort of cheaper, he doesn't have to say 'cut' for money reasons or whatever.

TO And does that make it more relaxed over the whole thing?

RB Yeah, yeah.

SC Yes, it does. But it's never stressful on the set with Michael. It's the easy – ease is not a good adjective…

RB It's very easy to be relaxed on his set, and from that relaxation comes confidence, because when you're relaxed you're more likely to try things.

SC You're relaxed and Michael engenders an atmosphere of things just being – you don't feel the stakes are really high or there's pressure. And he doesn't talk a lot either, which I like. He doesn't sit down and deconstruct or impose some technique, like some directors do: 'Tell me your motivation in this scene, tell me what you're doing'. Lots of directors say: 'Let's talk about this character. What's he doing?' And although that can be important sometimes with directors, I find Michael's technique far more engaging because he'll just say a few words here and there and sort of nudge you in a certain direction, let you try things and if they don't work he'll say they don't work. Nver gets frustrated, never raises his voice. My favourite work has been working with him, you know. I almost want time to hurry up till the next time I work with him. Things I do with Michael when I watch them back, it's like watching an old family photo album or something. They're far more evocative for me personally than any of the work I've done on television.

RB And I think for the audience it's about as interesting as looking at somebody else's family photo album.

SC [Laughs] They may well be. I find it bizarre that anyone would ever actually want to watch it but there you go.

TO 'Cock and Bull' seems to have developed very much as something for you to be involved with – in this incarnation, after the sitcom. [The film contains an exchange in which Brydon says 'Originally I was going to play Tristram and [his father] Walter'; Coogan replies: 'Yeah, that was when it was going to be a sitcom.']

RB It was going to be... they did genuinely talk to me about doing it on television. That's not just a joke in the film. They genuinely called me up one day and said: 'We've got this idea, to do this series where you talk to the camera la-la-la.' And I went to Waterstone's or somewhere on Charing Cross Road and looked at the book and saw how big it was and just walked away. That doesn't reflect well on me but it's true. And then I didn't hear anything more about it. And even after we'd started to do this, it was only one day I went: 'Oh, God, this is the project they were talking about before, this is the same book'.

SC I didn't know that. I'm rather upset by that. I'm going to make a phone call.

RB No, but you come out of that very well. They chose you over me.

SC Doesn't matter. The fact that they considered you…

RB [Laughs] That bit in the film where you say...

SC I thought that line was just me being funny.

RB No, that's true, that's what they were going to do.

SC I can sort of see where their thinking was taking them but...

RB I think it's 'cause I spoke to the camera in 'Marion & Geoff' but then you spoke to the camera in '24 Hour Party People' on a big screen, so they went 'big screen – Steve'.

SC Yeah, yeah.

TO That's quite a big area that I thought was really interesting: there does seem to be this overlap with both of your work on TV, it's so self-conscious in a way. The characters you're both best known for are very aware of how they come across to an audience–

SC I think it's fair to say Rob's work is derivative.

RB [Laughs] I grew up watching Steve. I mean, when someone's been part of your life for that long, you know, in your formative years, when I was going through adolescence, the family – my parents as well were big fans. And I still know a lot of people now watch him on cable…

TO You can still find them…

RB So yeah, sure, he's been an influence.

SC It was good, that. You got the cable, and the youth thing.

RB He's heard both these things many times before, you realise. Not the first time I've pulled that one out of the bag.

SC It's almost the shamelessness of the overuse that makes me laugh. You are more schticky than me.

RB Yes, yes, yes.

SC I try to be more oblique. I don't know why I fucking bother.

RB I don't know why you bother! It's the truth of it – I really don't know why you bother! Why?! What's to be gained from bloody obliqueness?!

SC I don't know.

RB Why not [adopts Ronnie Corbett voice and posture] sit on the end of the chair – hahaha – and do something like that? Why not? Fuck, life's too short.

SC I think you need to vary it. I'm doing something at the moment that is quite schticky.

TO What's that?

SC [Mock-flattered to be asked] Oh, it's, er–

RB That's very good, I'll learn from that.

TO Shall we talk about that for a little bit?

SC [Laughs] It's a new character I've been working on for some time, I've piloted it and I'm writing another six episodes and I'm shooting that early next year. It's about an ex-roadie–

RB He's a mid-afternoon DJ, so it's different. It is different.

SC It's about an ex-roadie who's now a pest control operator who lives in Stevenage. That's it really. It's a new character, a bit more– a bit nicer than Alan Partridge.

RB I've seen it.

SC He's seen it.

RB We were in LA, which is a very glamorous place, and I was staying at one hotel and he was staying at the Chateau Marmont. And I phoned him one night on a Saturday night and I said: 'What are you doing?' and he said: 'I'm coming by in an open top Thunderbird, let's go back to my hotel.' Fantastic, this is going to be great! So I wait outside my hotel on Sunset Boulevard and this grey car comes along and he's waving his arms out the top and I jumped in the back like the 'Dukes of Hazzard'. There were some other people there – they were people of both sexes, you know, I thought: 'Well, who knows what's going to happen?' We go back to the hotel where John Belushi was found dead – it was that one wasn't it?

SC It was, yeah.

RB Right, this is gonna be a great night, I'm going to remember this forever, I'm going to tell people about this. And we get back, we go to his room – we're in one of the little cottages in the grounds of the Marmont. Fantastic, what's Steve going to pull out of the hat here? What are we going to do? [Breaks into his Coogan impression] 'Er, sssorry, I've actually got the pilot of my new show.' And we sat there and watched the pilot of his new show while he stood over us monitoring our laughs. And that was my wild night at the Chateau Marmont. And then it finished and we said: 'Very good, yeah' – and it was, jokes aside, it was very good indeed – and then it was like: 'Right, well, er... Better make a move...'

SC I said: 'You can find your own way to the door.'

RB And we're wandering out through the darkness in the garden 'cause it's like two in the morning by then. But it's very good, it is very funny, it is very good.

TO So what's the set-up of it?

RB Oh, God.

SC See, it’s not put him off at all. It's completely backfired! You've actually propagated the conversation!

TO But that was a good long quotable chunk from Rob, though.

RB That's the big chunk for me, that's a big chunk.

SC It's an ex-roadie who's coming through…

RB You've said this already.

TO But is it sit-commy or…?

SC Shot on location, single camera. No audience.

RB Oh, I don't think it's as bad as all that–

SC Oh, I knew that! As soon as I said that I thought 'Oh no! Argh!'

RB Let's not judge it before it goes out. Let's not jump the gun. [Conspiratorially] Do you know, I think you're probably right, but let's give it a fighting chance.

SC [Laughs] No, I can see you've learned from bitter experience. Oh dear. Let's talk about 'Cock and Bull'. I think it's funny, anyway.

TO Has it [Coogan's new sitcom] got a title yet?

SC [To Rob] Do you think I should stick with that title?

RB 'Saxondale'? No, I don't. I think it's a bit of a mouthful. But I can just see myself being proven wrong now as they say 'and the BAFTA goes to…' And you say 'Rob Brydon said it should have been…' 'Sax-on-dale'. 'Sax-on-dale'. People might think it's a type of butter or a glorified milk, like Cravendale. I'm not sure about the title, I'm not sure about the title.

SC I'm not sure about it. I keep going back. I was going to call it 'A Man Called Whores', and actually change his surname to Whores.

RB Just for the title?

SC Well, yeah.

RB That's like 'A Partridge Amongst the Pigeons', isn't it? 'It's just a title sequence, we'll work the show around it.' No, you could do some stupid pun on roadies or 'Access All Areas' – that's not the title but you could do something like that. I just think 'Saxondale' – But then at the end of the day if the show's good, people – It's like names. 'Arnold Schwarzenegger? You’ll never get anywhere with a name like that.' Now everybody knows him, do you know what I mean? I think it becomes academic. But it doesn't flow off the tongue.

SC [Pensively] 'Saxondale'… No, it doesn't. I don't know, I might stick with it. No idea.

RB Having seen it, I would say the title is the least of your problems. I would really put your energies into other areas. Script! Ahem. No, it's very good. I was suitably annoyed by it, put it like that.

SC Good. That's the best compliment you could possibly give.

RB I was unsettled by it. I was rattled. I went back to my hotel and sat up long into the night. [Makes tap-tap-tapping noise] 'Must come up with funny idea…'

SC Well, that's good, you know. That's the free market, that's Milton Friedman economics applied to comedy.

TO 'Cock and Bull' – as something that's obviously about the telling of itself – based on a 250-year-old novel, but it seems to be very pertinent to now: celebrity culture, TV shows about being shows. Maybe a bit more unusual for films…

SC It is, it is, but I think it does tap into– because audiences are now conversant with reality television I don't think it seems as odd as subject matter or as avant garde as it might have...

RB Yes, as it would have done maybe ten years ago or something. Yeah. That's true.

SC But even on the page, it didn't leap off the page frankly. Strangely, when I went to one of the financiers with Michael and Andrew to convince them to put money into this film I ended up standing up and acting out a bit in front of the financier and then he laughed and that's partly how we got the money to make the film. And that then became a scene in the film.

TO Was it the chestnuts? [In the film 'Coogan' impresses the financiers by putting hot chestnuts down his pants.]

SC It wasn’t the chestnuts, I did something else. But I kept saying: 'We're going to improvise and embellish when we make this film,' that's what I was saying, you know: 'We'll do things on the set that will come alive, and the reason I know that is because I've worked with Michael before and this is how it works. There'll be a lot more than is on the page.' And that's very difficult to convince people, you have to sometimes go: 'It's like this', and then they laugh and they go: 'Oh, I see', because they can't see it on the page so I do it, I did something and that then became part of the script.
I think that there is a strange, you know, resonance with, erm... Lawrence Sterne was a bit of a celebrity himself, he became the darling of the London dinner circuit when he was, er... And that's sort of reflected in his slight shamelessness and self-promotion, which kind of dovetails with me playing myself in a way and Rob playing himself too. I think we've established there's a huge amount of resonating going on, basically.
I've been reading lots of scripts from America – that's actually a line I say in the film, but I have – and actually having made 'Cock and Bull' they all seem a bit conventional and a bit blah-de-blah-de-blah and a bit ABC, you know what I mean? And you think this whole approach has been really fresh. Michael's thing is to always think: 'How would everyone else do this? I'm going to do the opposite.' He sort of walks in the opposite direction, or if there's a problem or there's an obstacle instead of avoiding it or circumventing it he walks towards the obstacle in his creativity.

RB It's different, isn't it? I think we both felt that the worst case scenario was that it would be a noble failure because at the very least it was always going to be different. Because – I don't read as many scripts as Steve, of course I don't, that would be ludicrous – but the ones I read are by and large, unless you're getting sent 'Adaptation' – which there are parallels with 'Cock and Bull', or very cleverly structured things like that, or interesting things like that – they are by and large just telling stories. And that's great when they're done well. But something like this, even if it hadn't come off as well as it has, it would still be...

SC Interesting.

RB I would still be glad to put my name to a film that was different, interesting, trying to...

SC I think it was funnier than I thought it would be, actually. I always thought it would be diverting in some way and anecdotal, a conversation piece of a film, but I didn't think it would be as accessible as it is.

RB I didn't think it would get the big laughs that it gets when you watch it – and we've watched it with quite a lot of audiences now.

SC And having said that Michael is an auteur but Rob and I – Rob more than me actually, I think I'm probably in between Rob and Michael here…

RB Don't know what you're going to say here.

SC I know.

TO It's a hell of a picture.

SC It is.

RB I'm on edge. I can't relax. I can't relax!

SC In a gay threesome! Oh no!

RB Oh no!

SC Basically that our natural instincts or Rob's natural instincts for crowd-pleasing and my lesser instincts for…

RB Oh, that old chestnut, yeah. This is one of his themes.

SC And my instinct that's not far behind yours for crowd-pleasing, and Michael's is almost absent.

RB [Laughs] He's got no crowd-pleasing instincts at all.

SC He doesn't, really. But I think that our instinct for that plays well with Michael's creativity…

RB Yes, I agree. Yeah.

SC …and it kind of makes it... it softens it. The reason Michael works with me, and Rob, to a lesser extent…

RB To a lesser extent.

SC Obvioiusly.

RB Yeah.

SC …is because he realises you can use a lightness of touch to things that have depth.

RB A warmth as well. I'm a very warm actor. You're just a little bit…

SC I think you're right.

RB …not quite as warm as me.

SC No, I think you're right. Yeah.

RB But you have got all your hair, so, you know... I would sacrifice some of my warmth for a full head of hair, can I just say that now?

SC And I'm happy with my lack of warmth and my full head of hair.

RB Yeah, you've got the best of both worlds.

TO Well, the thing is, the more hair you've got, the less warmth you need. It's like insulation.

SC Oh, I see, it works on another level.

RB That's very good, that's very good, yeah.

SC I think that's interesting because normally auteur type directors work with 'ac-tors', don't they, they sort of work with classically trained RSC, National Theatre actors.

RB But then when they do bring people in it's interesting. If you look at that French director Patrice Leconte, who did 'L'Homme du Train' – now, he would be considered an auteur, I would imagine, and yet he brings Johnny Halliday into that film, 'The Man on the Train', and you get a wonderful film because you get this warm– [To Coogan] Have you seen it? It's a terrific film, French film, brilliant, really good. There's a trailer for it in America with no dialogue so people couldn't tell it was a French film.

SC Oh, really?

RB Yeah, yeah.[Adopts gravely movie-trailer voice]: 'Man on the Train' [Makes train noises] The American: 'God damn, I gotta see that movie!' You imagine them sitting down: 'What the fuck?! They're talking French or something!' It's very good, but he brings someone in and maybe there's a parallel there, I don’t know.

SC Yeah, I think more British directors should work with me.

RB And if you're not available, me.

SC And Rob, to a lesser extent.

TO It kind of comes back to engagement with the audience, I think that's something that's essential to how enjoyable 'Cock and Bull' is, the fact that there's such a conversational rapport between you two on screen and also between you [Coogan] as narrator and the audience.

RB Well, it's been good for us because I wanted to kind of– Although we have worked together in the past several times, never substantially, really, have we? I'm in 'I'm Alan Partridge' fleetingly, I'm in '24 Hour Party People' fleetingly, you were in 'A Small Summer Party' [the prequel spin-off to 'Marion & Geoff'] kind of fleetingly. We did 'Cruise of the Gods' [on BBC TV in 2002] but again we didn't have that many scenes together.
So far in my career this is the perfect platform for working with Steve. I can't really think of any better set-up inasmuch as in one movie we get to do the period stuff, the modern day, and we get to improvise. When I read the script it jumped off the page and I went: 'Oh God, I want to do this! Look, I get to do this, I get to do this, I get to do this.'

TO And your Roger Moore. [In one scene, Brydon does his Roger Moore impression during an on-screen interview; in a later scene, which turns out to be a fantasy in the 'Coogan' character's head, Brydon has a romantic scene with Gillian Anderson which he plays in the style of Roger Moore.]

RB Well, yeah. The Roger Moore thing only happened because in the bit where I'm doing the EPK [a scene in which 'Rob Brydon' is interviewed for the electronic press kit for the film] I'm in the garden and I talk about you [Coogan] and I'm wearing that Parka and everything – I was genuinely angry because I knew we had to film those EPK bits and you got to film yours with Tony [Wilson, who does the interviews] indoors in the warm, nicely lit. And I remember thinking I was doing it in that setting too and I was told: 'No, you're doing in out in the garden'. And I thought: 'Oh, I'm going to be bloody freezing.' And it's harder to be funny when you're cold.

SC Oh!

RB So they put me out there, and you see this in the 'South Bank Show' they did because I stand up at the end and say to Michael: 'Actually, this is really hard because I don't know what level of Rob I'm being here', because I hadn't got my head round it, you know. Then when I did the Roger Moore with Gillian Anderson, that was just Michael's thing he threw in, 'cause I think I did a few takes trying it different ways and he said: 'Do it as Roger Moore', and I didn't know why. I'd forgotten that I'd done that thing as Roger Moore and that it was going to be a throughline, you know. But I think it works really well!

SC I couldn't stop laughing. 'Cause it's like my imagination…

RB Yeah, that's how you imagine me, exactly.

SC Somehow I'm paranoid because I think you might be as good as Roger Moore.

RB Yes, I know, I think it works brilliantly because your nightmare scenario is that I'm doing it and then to make it worse I'm doing it as your hero, you know, I'm doing it as Roger Moore. It's like: 'Argh!'

SC [Laughs] Yeah, Michael's very good at on-the-spot ideas like that, instinctive things. He doesn't over-process things I don't think.

RB But I just went with that and I can't think of any other directors that I've worked with so far who if they said to me: 'Do it as Roger Moore' I'd go: 'Yeah'. I'd want to go: 'Oh, hang on a minute, what do you mean, 'do it as Roger Moore? Why? How is this going to fit in? What are you talking about. But I trust him completely so you go: 'Okay, yes, fine. Okay'.

SC I think we should do a thing like Baddiel and Skinner.

RB What, 'Unplanned'?

SC Yeah.

RB Okay.

SC Shall we do a thing like that? There's not that much work involved.

RB Well, that's the beauty of it. But they have already done it, that's the only thing I would point out. But they haven't done it on the BBC! 'What's different about your show?' 'It's on the BBC!'

SC And it's not Baddiel and Skinner.

RB It would have to be Brydon and Coogan. Wouldn't it?

SC [Unconvinced] Well, thereabouts…

RB Yeah, something like that.

SC Something like that.

RB Yeah, we could. They are very good at that though.

SC Yeah, yeah, they are. But maybe we could do a double interview show. You remember there used to be a politics programme called 'Under Fire'? There were three people questioning one person, all going like that, boom boom. It could be quite good, the two of us interviewing one guest. So it's like there are two interviewers. No one's done that before, two interviewers interviewing one guest, genuinely, and asking them questions and maybe using them to bounce stuff off… Worth piloting?

RB Would I get an executive producer credit? Could I just take some money off on that as well?

SC Well, I've just thought of the idea.

RB We'd have to do it as a co-production, I'm not going to do it entirely–

SC Well, I'll give you– Of course, I will give you some sort of production credit.

RB Well, you can't do it without me, so–

SC No, that's true. That's true, but it is my idea.

RB Don't shoot yourself in the foot and cut off your nose to spite your face.

SC No, but I mean, there are…

RB I'm not saying no, I'm just saying obviously we'd have to have some ground rules.

SC Well, certainly a percentage could be negotiated, and some production credit. Either an executive producer credit or a production credit, but not both. You know, Jones the Film [Brydon's production company] or Rob Brydon maybe gets some sort of credit, I don't know.

RB I don't know. I don't think it's going to work.

SC I've gone off the idea. I've talked my way out of it.

RB Yeah. I'm quite busy actually. Certainly until the middle of this month. I don't think I could do anything...

TO A chat show obviously wouldn't be completely virgin territory – could be an interesting one? I only bring it up because it is something that is brought up in the film.

SC Is it? Oh, you mean 'Knowing Me, Knowing You'?

TO That's the one.

SC Well, that was a scripted chat show, it wasn't actually genuinely– there was no real improvisation.

RB Whereas on 'The Keith Barrett Show' I improvised with my guests. It is different.

SC Yeah, his was very much in the Mrs Merton, Dame Edna mould that we've seen time and again.

RB I think 'Mrs Merton' was pretty heavily scripted, from what I'm told. I know Caroline would… but I do think it was pretty heavily scripted to be fair, whereas…

SC Character interviewing guests, though. [Ahem]

RB I see it more akin with Barry Humphries.

SC Yep. [Ahem]

RB And relax. But, you know, as I said before, he's the Godfather [ie Coogan]. He's the Daddy. Although he's younger than me, which is a bit spooky.

TO Do you think that's where a little bit of the tension that you play on in the film comes from?

RB There's no tension. There's no tension.

SC There's no tension at all. There isn't any tension.

RB No tension. It's just wrong love.

SC It's just two emotionally repressed men…

RB Two men with issues. But very different issues…

SC …who can't express their love for each other.

RB …and they kind of bang up against each other.

To read part two of this interview, click here.

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