Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon Q&A Part Two

The comedy duo discuss flirting, tabloid intrusion and the making of their new film 'A Cock and Bull Story'.

Jan  6 2006

Part two of Ben Walters' interview with Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon, in which the comedy duo claim to be Cannon and Ball for Guardian readers, while Alan Partridge is little more than orange pulp.

Time Out Did you first meet each other through Keith Barrett?

Rob Brydon No, we met through Julia Davis. During a roasting session at a West End… No, I worked with Julia doing improv in Bath in about 1992, then kind of lost touch with her for some years. Then she came to London and she was immediately starting to work with very good people like Chris Morris, Graham [Linehan] and Arthur [Matthews, writers of 'Big Train'], but more interestingly to me, Steve, because he was doing exactly what I wanted to do. I mean, I was doing voiceovers and there was this man doing character comedy and doing it brilliantly well and I just thought: 'Well, this is what I want to do'. You know, we dress very similarly, brown shoes, jeans and a brown top.

Steve Coogan I find it bizarre, that. This has happened so many times.

RB This happens a lot.

SC We turn up and we're both – I can't believe we're both in brown shoes and brown top and jeans. We've done this quite a few times. It's interesting. I think it's more profound than we think it is.

RB You remember when we were doing that photo shoot in LA for that paper and we both said the same thing at the same time? It was really odd. This guy, the photographer, said: [adopts America accent] 'Okay, can you just do this now, like that? Okay, just move together.' And we moved together and then backed off, and both, at the same time, went: 'It's instinctive'. Do you remember? It was spooky.
But we met through Julia, anyway. I'd already bought tickets to go and see his [Coogan's] show at Reading, the tour 'The Man Who Thinks He's It', and I went and saw Julia afterwards, went to the hotel and met him. And it was a big deal. I should really play this down and appear cool but it was a big deal, I must say, to meet him.

SC I don't remember him.

RB I bet you don't, do you? I bet you genuinely don't.

SC No, I do remember meeting you, I do. I do remember Julia introducing me to a friend of hers who was Welsh, and about your height.

RB So it could have been Peter Baynham, it might have been the lead singer of the Stereophonics. Who knows who it was?

SC But there's a good chance it was you.

RB There's a fair chance it was me. No, I do remember meeting you there. Then I contrived a meeting with you where I met you in the pub.

SC Yeah, that was weird.

RB Yeah. Well, no, it was industrious on my part. 'Cause I'd given Julia a tape of different characters that I'd done.

SC Oh, that's right, I was going to the toilets and you came round the corner and went 'Oh, hi!'

RB I did not do that. I did not do that. I used to do a radio show down the road from where he was –

SC Came out of the cubicle – 'Oh, hi!'

RB – and I thought, well, I'll wander along there, because I hadn't heard anything back after she gave him the tape, and I thought: 'Well, I’ll go and put myself in a place where I might see him.' So I went to the pub. I knew he would be at the pub because this was in the days when he still had a bit of a…

SC Pub thing, yeah.

RB I went there and he came over to me and said he'd seen the tape and that he really liked it. And again, I should play this down but it really meant a lot. Because once you have a little bit of success you kind of forget, but in those days it seemed impossible to be in that kind of comedy world. How on earth do you get there? I used to watch the Comedy Awards and go: 'How on earth do you get in that world?' It just seems completely inaccessible, like another planet. So it was a big deal. He came over, said he'd seen the tape and it all kind of went from there really.

TO You probably don't remember, but I interviewed you when 'Marion & Geoff' first came out.

RB For what?

TO It was actually for the Daily Express – I think it was the first national paper interview you'd done.

RB I certainly remember a journalist not unlike you – your height and er, yeah...

TO But it kind of struck me – just from what you're saying about it seeming impossible to break through – it really struck me how assured you seemed.

SC Other people have remarked on that.

RB What?

SC How assured you were.

RB [Laughs] I'm not sure how to take that! Does that mean, like, arrogant? What are you saying?

SC No, no, just pretty confident.

RB [Laughs]

SC Took to it like a duck to water, the success.

RB To success? Yeah, well, it was a bloody long time coming, that's why.

SC No, it's true, you weren't backwards in coming forwards, and why should you be?

RB Well, it's true. Why? What are you going to do? I'll tell you what I did learn after a while is you've got to show people what you can do and you've got to grab it.

SC No, you're right, you're right.

RB I grew up with a kind of Elvis thing of being very humble, thinking that greatness was going to be thrust upon me: [adopts Elvis mumble] 'Well, I don't know, sir, I just don't know…', all that rubbish. You've got to go out there and show people. And for years I wasn't getting parts – 'why don't they realise how good I am?’ Well, because they haven't seen it. You have to show it to them, you can't keep it in your head. [Coogan conspicuously sighs, 'yeahs' and 'mm-hmm's through this] You've got to get a tape of something, you've got to do a performance, you've got to do something to show it. So I got to the point where I was getting to my early to mid-thirties and thinking: 'Bloody hell' [Turning to Coogan], we've talked too long about me! Look at him, he's getting so restless.

SC No, it's fine, 'cause some of it's reflecting well on me. That's why I’m not interrupting you. If you'd been combative I'd come back at you but you're not, so you know I'm giving you your…

RB 'Combatitive...' 'Typical tratatoria menu.' Um, yes, 'there’s only so much you can feed intravenously from a typical tratatoria menu.' [A line one of his characters speaks in 'Human Remains'.]

SC I know, that's one of my favourite performances of yours.

RB Yeah, wonderful, yeah.

SC 'Human Remains'.

RB 'Human Remains', very good show.

SC 'Slither In' and 'More Than Happy' [episode titles].

RB Come on BBC2, give it the repeat it deserves.

SC Yeah, why don't they repeat it?

TO And it's not on DVD either, is it?

RB It is on DVD.

SC It is on DVD.

RB It's a great DVD.

SC It is a really good DVD.

RB Really good DVD.

SC It's very good. It is very, very good.

RB Yeah, loads of extras. Tons.

SC It's really good, very funny, and the BBC should repeat it because it's bloody good. It's got two bloody stars in it!

RB Especially now that Julia's done 'Nighty Night'. Why on earth don't they repeat it?

SC Come on, BBC! Pull your finger out!

RB What about 'Cruise of the Gods'? It's got Walliams in it, you and me.

SC 'Cruise of the Gods' has got David Walliams, Rob Brydon, Steve Coogan…

RB Brian Conley.

SC [Laughs] Brian Conley. James Cawden.

RB James Cawden, yeah.

SC From 'Fat Friends'. There's loads of good people, they should repeat that too. They don't know what they've got. It's right under their noses. Repeats! We want more repeats! How loud do we have to say this?

RB So, what, I was very assured? Did I come across as assured?

TO Yeah, well, obviously having only seen the tapes of 'Marion & Geoff'…

RB So you thought I was going to be like Keith and sort of 'oh hello, la la la'?

TO Well, of course you know the character isn't the same as the performer but if that's all you have to go on you sort of have a neutral expectation [Big sigh from Coogan]. It was with Hugo [Blick, the show's director and co-witer] as well.

RB He's quite assured. Very confident.

TO But he was assured in a more stationary way.

RB What was I doing? Running around the room?

TO Well, a little bit… Obviously in 'Cock and Bull', Steve you've got…

RB Ooh, the upper hand.

TO …a slightly higher public profile at the moment in terms of there being this public idea of 'Steve Coogan' that you can play on. And again one of the fantastic things in the film is those layers – like you say, it's sort of parallel with Sterne but the fact that for you, even separately from 'Cock and Bull', there's 'Alan Partridge', then there's 'Steve Coogan', tabloid persona…

SC Which is not something I'm totally comfortable with. My frustration with tabloid stuff is it really annoys me in an obvious way.

RB Well, 'cause you don't – if I can jump in here – I never really comment on this but the thing with you, I think, with tabloids is you don’t court it, you don't use the tabloids, other than you do some interviews to plug a show. But I can well understand Steve's frustration, just saying: 'Look, bugger off, I'm just living my life'. And they're like: 'No, we want to get involved', you know what I mean?

SC I think you make a deal with the devil when you take a free kitchen and appear in Hello magazine, which I've never done. I mean if I had got the free kitchen I wouldn't mind the tabloid intrusion so much.

RB Can you now have a free kitchen in retrospect?

SC Can I have my kitchen now, please, because I've taken the shit. I actually think it's like people have said for years: 'It's none of your business'…

RB Excuse me, I need the toilet. [Leaves]

SC … because people have said for years: 'It's none of your business', it sort of loses any impact. People go: 'Oh yeah, everyone says that', but it's still the truth. It is still none of their business. And they might say: 'Oh, you need the tabloids too for people to watch your programmes.' I never really sought fame in terms of being a personality, I want to act and create characters and write. I don't appear on panel shows, ever, I don't do any of those quiz shows. They don't ask me any more. They used to. They don't ask me any more. I never appear on panel shows as me. I don't want to be a TV personality. I like doing characters. Do I hide behind characters? Yes, I do, but because I want to. So, you know, that's what I do.
I've never held myself up as a paragon of virtue, so that does annoy me. It annoys me as a point of principle, it doesn't annoy me like: 'Oh, woe is me', because there's far greater things to be bothered about in the world, obviously, than me getting a bit of flak from the tabloids.
However, in terms of the film, what bothered me wasn't so much my utilising of that, because it was not self-indulgent. It didn't bother me so much that I was using what had already come out in the papers 'cause it was like the damage is done or whatever – it's no good crying over spilt milk, so I might as well use it in the film. And also Michael said if there was anything I didn't like, it didn't have to be in the film. I could have taken anything out at any point.
So I approved everything that was in there and in the script. My chief concern was that it wasn't indulgent – I needed to know that someone could go and see this film who didn't know who I was and enjoy the film, and that it was salient to Sterne's novel in some way. So it had to work in that respect. And because of that I did take out some references – there are a couple of Alan Partridge references that are lost on the Americans but I don't think that matters so much. There were actually even more parochial references, so I said: 'Take those out' because they're too specific and require a knowledge of me and that's too self-aggrandising, really, and can be distracting. So to me it was all about whether it's interesting. I don't mind using myself of exposing myself as long as it's interesting – I just don't want it to be dull and uninteresting for people. So that's a chief concern from my personal point of view.
Using aspects of, in terms of the actual acting, of playing myself, it's not a million miles away from me doing any other character because in any character I've ever done – and of course I have done more than Alan Partridge…

RB [Sniggers]

SC Have we got that? Have we got that on camera three? That expression from Rob? That's what we'll be doing on [BBC1 talk show 'Friday Night with] Jonathan Ross'. Can we get that?

RB What are we going to do on 'Jonathan Ross'? Are we going to be friendly or are we going to be very spiky? Because I'm a bit nervous about it.

SC I am. Let's just go over some ground rules first.

RB Yeah, we should. I really do want to do some ground rules because it could be...

SC Otherwise it just comes across like it could be just nasty.

RB Yeah, yeah.

SC No, we'll do some ground rules, we'll say: 'We won't talk about that, maybe talk about that, if Jonathan brings something up then okay, fair game. But we'll establish that later.
Anyway, in any character I've done, I'm always using aspects of me. Even Alan Partridge is part of me, but sort of separated and concentrated. It's gone through a kind of a process. It's like kind of orange pulp.

RB What are you? Are you the pulp or is Alan the pulp?

SC Alan's the pulp.

RB So you're the original orange.

SC Yeah, I'm the original orange. So it's a pulping, straining process.

RB Or is Alan the zest of the orange?

TO What's the juice?

SC The juice is…

RB All the other characters that he does that are quite similar.

SC [Laughs] Yeah. But in all seriousness, that's not true, because – [all laugh] because Paul Calf is not similar to Alan Partridge. Neither is Pauline.

RB Paul Calf is what you're like when you're…

SC Drunk.

RB When Steve is getting drunk he's Pauline Calf.

SC Is that true?

RB Yeah, yeah. You remember that morning in New York? You were Paul Calf, when we were going to do that thing. [Adopts slurred mumbling voice and mimes exhaling fag smoke.] You're Paul Calf. You're Paul Calf!

SC Oh, God, I hate – I know I am, I know I am, I know I am. I know. Anyway, that's all in the past.

RB And in between you must be Tony Ferrino, but I've never seen that moment. How flattering is this for him? Look at that, look at that.

SC What's annoying is some people actually probably don't see me as doing any acting but it is acting. I'm playing – when we do the stuff on screen we have to do what is funny, and neuroses and weaknesses and human failings are what tend to generate comedy, rather than strengths and virtues, which tend to be very unfunny. So obviously I give vent to that side of me which is flawed rather than accentuating things that I think are good about me. So if you want to know who I am, it's an imbalanced portrayal, but if you want an interesting film then that gives you an interesting film. A balanced portrayal of me would be genuinely… No, would be far less interesting.

RB You know I didn't come in in that gap there. I could have done.

SC Yeah, I know you didn't and I appreciate it.

RB It went against everything I believe in.

SC It's good though, it shows growth.

RB Very good. I'll give you that. That's two points there.

TO It sounds like you'd be really happy…

RB To live together.

TO …to work together.

[All laugh]

RB It sounds like we're really happy together! Improvising is a little bit like flirting, isn't it? Because you are kind of going 'dum-di-di-dum'. 'Oh, da-da-da…' [ie establishing a rapport]

SC It's like a non-sexual flirtation.

RB Yeah. So far.

SC Oh, please. Urgh, horrible. Or is that a case of the lady doth protest too much? You're going to jump in and say – I'm writing your stuff! I'm writing your stuff as well.

RB Yeah, it does sound as if we'd be happy what? Doing what?

SC When I went: 'Urgh' I thought it was like, ooh, you know when people are kind of over-homophobic, they always go: 'Oh, that’s a sign'.

RB Yeah, actually very gay.

SC Well, whatever. Bit of sexual ambiguity didn't do Robbie Williams any harm, did it? Or David Bowie. Or yourself.

RB I think my only sexual ambiguity is whether I've ever had sex. That's ridiculous, but I'm sure you'll put it in. I've got three children, come on. The proof is there.

TO Short of living arrangements, in professional terms it's seeming quite…

SC In all seriousness it is, er, I sort of reluctantly have to admit it is a productive relationship.

RB It's not what either of us wants.

SC You have to kind of go where…

RB If God gives you lemons, you know. Stuck with this bloody lemon. We sound like Cannon and Ball.

SC We're kind of Cannon and Ball for Guardian readers.

RB We're the Chuckle Brothers. When we were doing the film, when we were in the period stuff we did think occasionally of Barry and… Robin? No, they're Bee Gees. Barry and… What are they, the Chuckle Brothers?

SC I can't remember.

RB Well, whatever they are. You know, 'to me, to you'. He's pretending he doesn't know, but he does.

SC [Laughs] You got a signed album from them?

RB No, I'm onto the Chuckles now, not the Bee Gees.

SC Yeah, I know, I know. Signed, I meant like…

RB Have you ever met the Bee-Gees?

SC No, but I know that they played 'Alan Partridge' on their tour bus.

RB Yeah, I know, I know, I know. I heard that as well. I'm a big fan.

SC Of 'Partridge'?

RB No. I had a good joke in 'Director's Commentary', there were some people dancing around a maypole. I said: 'Ah, Morris dancing. Not any more, of course, now it's just Barry and Robin, very sad.' I love that joke.

SC I know. You know, if I'd been writing Partridge they never would have allowed me to do that joke.

RB Really?

SC Oh no, that wouldn't have passed muster, 'cause it's such a blatant joke. One joke I wanted to do on Partridge and they said: 'You can't do that'. It was tai chi, something about tai chi – Alan saying 'I'm not keen on tai chi. I don't like any foreign food.'

RB Can I just say for the record, that's not as good a joke as my Morris dancing. That's better 'cause you don't see it coming. You don't see it coming.

SC [Sighs]

RB I think that's a good joke.

TO Yeah, if you haven't been talking about the Bee Gees.

RB Yeah, all right, but if you do it out of the blue. I think that's a pretty – I'm happy with that.

SC Okay. Do you know, that's a rubbish joke, that [the tai chi joke]. Can you take the one I did out, can we lose it? I don't mind if you actually say: 'Can I...' Keep my deletion within the text because it shows at least I've got some humility.

TO Can I quote that as well?

SC What?

TO Can I quote that?

SC Yep.

TO Very 'Shandy'. But again, the 'Director's Commentary' is again part of the…

SC Oh, he went for that hook, line and sinker.

RB See how I brought it round? Let's talk about my body of work.

SC I can't believe it! So blatant, I thought you'd just pass over it, but he's fucking taken the bait.

RB So, 'Director's Commentary', yes? Wasn't featured in the [NFT] celebration of 50 years of ITV – strange that. Anyway, go on.

TO Again it's like with Alan Partridge, the self-reference...

RB The 'Director's Commentary' for me – I mean, this won't end up in the piece, I'm sure – it's just doing what I would do naturally and let's make a show with it, because I would watch a show, when I was a kid I remember watching 'When Eagles Dare' –

SC [Sighs very obviously]

RB He's exhaling loudly. Put down: '"When I was a kid" Steve exhales loudly…' [Coogan laughs] Oh, here we go. Um, yeah, I used to watch 'Where Eagles Dare' and I'd start doing his voice – "Where's my books, Elizabeth?" and stuff like that. This is similar to that but different, because I wasn't voicing the characters, I was being the director, just because that's something now – you know, those commentaries. They were ripe for parodying, I suppose.

SC [Exhales loudly.]

TO [To both] But that's something that even gets a mention in 'Cock and Bull'. The commentary doesn't but…

SC Sorry, I was miles away. Um…

RB I don't think one of my shows would get a mention. I think that would be one of the things he'd have taken out at an early stage.

TO No, 'Director's Commentary' doesn't but the whole DVD thing…

RB There was talk of me doing a commentary. You won't have heard about this but Andrew said: 'You could do one as Peter DeLane' [Brydon's character in 'Director's Commentary']. I'm sure you'll block it before we get to that stage!

SC Um… [Pause] Hmm. I think a hybrid of that could work. Stephen Dillane –

RB Peter DeLane.

SC Peter DeLane. Stephen Dillane's an actor.

RB He was in 'The Parole Officer', wasn't he?

SC He was.

RB He's all right now.

SC [Laughs]

RB Always on on Christmas Day. In Steve's house.

SC [Laughs] That's fucking [shameless], that. That's one of these. [Mimes leafing through a jokebook with a wetted finger, finding a suitable chestnut and looking up expectantly.] 'Oh, and another thing–!'
I think the Peter DeLane thing…

RB No, let's just move on – he wanted to talk about it, I understand that. A lot of fans out there. Let's face it, it's not going to be repeated, this is the only chance I get! It's on DVD.

TO But 'Cock and Bull' as a film seems made for a commentary – it's almost like a commentary already.

RB What's happening? Have you done the commentary?

SC You and I should, when the DVD comes out – the film's not out yet!

RB Yeah, I know but nowadays these things seem to happen very quickly.

SC Yes, they do, they do.

RB And I'm a bit concerned that…

SC You and I will do a commentary along the lines of this, it'll just be another layer of the film.

TO Exactly. Like with the novel, with the footnotes and all the apparatus around it, it's almost like a literary DVD package.

SC You know what might be good, because sometimes you can think: 'Are we going to just try and be funny or are we just going to be straight?' We should actually do two [commentaries] and one just like anything goes and another where we try – try – to resist, unless it's irresistible, to not be funny, and keep pulling each other up.

RB Would that work? It would be interesting for us to do a very serious one.

SC We've done interviews where clearly the journalist does not want banter. In America actually Rob [misunderstood] a couple of times, the bloke was going: 'Yeah, yeah, I love the shtick but can we…'

RB That's true.

SC So in actual fact there are some people who think: 'I want to know some genuine information now', so I think that the least you can do is give them a bit of respect. I think that's interesting, you could do like – Michael won't do them, he doesn't like doing them. He hasn't got much to say anyway.

RB And you couldn't understand him when he does.

SC [Does an impression of Winterbottom as upper class waffle ending in 'bit quicker']

TO Do you enjoy interviews in general?

SC I think it's easier with Rob because there's, it stops it –

RB Oh, sorry, I thought you meant I find them easier because I'm a bit shallower. No, okay. It's easier doing them with you? Oh, yeah, it is, yeah.

SC Because it's just stimulating and also it gives you a rest. When you talk I can have a rest…

RB Tune out.

SC …and vice versa. Because…

RB Oh, they've been fun for this film, yeah. They've been great.

SC Really great. When you're on your own you can get– I sometimes get that thing where you start answering the question and halfway through the answer you don't know what you're saying or where it's going to go, the sentence and you think: 'You sound stupid' and this big voice in your head starts to overtake you. When I say voices in my head, I'm not schizophrenic.

TO Not that sort.

SC No. No one's told me to go out and kill anyone, yet. Apart from Rob sometimes. Hur-hur-hur. [All laugh]

TO From looking at the images for the cover shoot that seemed to be a very enjoyable photo shoot.

SC That's acting for you.

RB That was fun. But we'd been doing the poster all night.

SC We'd been doing it all night. The poster was actually more fun, the Time Out shoot I felt was a bit, I don't know, just a bit tiring, wasn’t it?

RB I mean, we'd been being photographed since 10.30 that morning. Can you imagine what that's like? Absolutely backbreaking. And you hear nurses up in arms about: 'Ooh'… Well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Ward Sister Phillips, but come along here and have to sell a British independent film to a broad audience for four hours, and I'll tell you how bloody hard work is. Oh, for God's sake.

SC I think you should go back to joking, Rob.

RB Ooh, Yes, some of it was fun. Let's wait and see what they look like because you can have…

SC I love nurses.

RB …a lovely photo session and you…

SC I love nurses. I think they work really hard. Far harder than we do. The irony of yours is going to be lost now.

RB No, you do love nurses.

SC He's going to sound like a bastard.

RB You do love nurses. He really does. Even if she’s not a nurse, he likes her to, you know... You do, don’t you?

SC I've got the uniform.

RB And schoolteachers as well, that's one of yours, isn't it? And a policewoman. Off-duty policewoman.

TO Any public sector worker…?

SC Traffic wardens, yeah. That can save you from a ticket…

[Interview ends]

'A Cock and Bull Story' is released on January 20. To read part one of the interview, click here.

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